@djoerd Ik ben eigenlijk benieuwd hoe dat bij andere opleidingen zit - ik ken genoeg MBO- en HBO-instituten die volledig in de O365-omgeving zitten.

So the entire university somehow fell into a sunk cost fallacy and dropped privacy concerns? The same university that had to back-paddle in late 2018 on certain privacy-unfriendly settings in their LMS?


@djoerd IIRC the discussion was mainly about teachers potentially being able to look up the timestamps and time investement on students' work. The students argued that teachers might rate work worse the later it had been handed it.
Main goal of teachers/staff I talked to back then seemed to be only the total amount of time spent on online assignments, rather than exact timings.
Assumption: technically possible. But: instead of a fix/change the thing was pretty much shut down.

Ik ook. Ik had toevalig gisteren een gesprek met vrienden die voor hun schoolgaande kinderen verplicht waren een Google Workplace abonnement te kopen. Ik vroeg ze of ze daar wel eens over hadden nagedacht en of het in ze was opgekomen om daar eens met de school over van gedachten te wisselen.

Nee dus, want "iedereen doet dat gewoon". Ik zei te wachten op het moment dat er weer een Max Schrems zou opstaan.

@djoerd I think it is not illegal if European citizin data stays in Europe, and AFAIK Microsoft has good facilities in Europe (and anticipated to GDPR to ensure this would not be a problem) - so this may not be completely correct.

@arjen This is another "shocking if true" toot! (Bart Jacobs thinks differently)

@arjen Btw, I received an email... that the transition to MS365 will change my email address... ???

@djoerd I think the existing email addresses live on as aliases, it is the departure of using uXXXXXX as accountname and switching to email address as accountname. Not sure why that is necessary, but they probably thought about it 😉

@djoerd note the "I think" I forgot the "not a lawyer" disclaimer :-) But provided that the data remain in Europe, I'm not sure whether validity of the Privacy Shield deal matters at all - I have always understood that this covers the data of European citizens that would reside in data centres in the US. But, again, no-laywer-disclaimer!

@djoerd I agree with Bart that we should just build something ourselves instead of buying in from Big Tech, but that is a different (not that legal) discussion.

@arjen tbh, after Snowden"s revelations, I don't see where the "I am not a lawyer, but I trust our data at US big tech is legally sufficiently protected from the NSA" is based on...

@djoerd if you want to prohibit to use software originating from outside Europe (let's not trust China or Russia more than USA) ... I think at least 90% of processes in our society will stop.

We are decades behind.

@arjen @djoerd let's start with switching to opensource first, and worry about location later. The location of origin isn't the biggest issue, not being able to run things under your own control is.

@arjen @djoerd not sure if we’re decades behind. But management is definitely lazy in choosing something else then the well marketed solutions like azure & aws.

@arjen I wonder if if matter where the software originates. I don't think it does: It matters where the data resides. Jacobs also worries about the data.
I trust MS Exchange (on premises) more than MS 365 in the cloud, even though the software is probably for a large part the same.

@djoerd and not an M$ specialist either 🙂

From the cloud providers AWS/GCP/Azure, they try hardest to comply with local rules and provide opportunities to run on-premise if you want to, but I don't know all the details. It's become all so complicated!

@arjen Yes, it depends on US law too! Can the US government subpoena our data?

Our government seems to be on the right track in that matter. National, that is, not sure about Europe yet. Bart organised an afternoon of presentations about IRMA yesterday and one of those showed how Big Tech should be kept on a leash and Open Source should be more or less the default.

Sure, we've seen things like this before (MS Office was to be replaced by OpenOffice years ago but somehow they're still on MS), but it looks promising.


@hans is this really used in practice? Last time I looked at it I was disappointingly convinced that our government would choose an eherkenning like approach for such services (maybe biased as I was working for a eH-provider)

I thought Amsterdam already used it on its website, but I can't find it. Probably work in progress. And there's IRMA-meet: https://www.irma-meet.nl
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